DEBATES THROUGH MACEDONIA

According to the implementation plan of the campaign for education of Roma “The key is in our hands” during November and December we realized debates through 11 cities in Macedonia. The main discussion on the debates was about the current directions in education of roma. From all of the 11 cities only the debate in Tetovo was postponed from objective reasons.The debates began in Bitola, in E.S. “Gorgi Sugarev” on the 12.11.2007.

BITOLA – 13 participants attended on the debates 6 of who were representatives of the school “Gorgi Sugarev”, 6 parents and the president of the parent’s council. On the debate like on the other debates we showed the documentary film with its main message for education and after the presentation of the conclusions and results of the campaign, Asmet Elezovski opened the discussion.

Zagorka Jovcevska, principal of “Gorgi Sugarev” said that at the moment there are 160 dropped out Roma children. The expert teams of the school pay regular visits so that they could convince the parents to send their children to school. There was a case where a mother came to the school to ask them to test her child so that it could be enrolled in first grade. The pedagogical service is constantly on the field and is visiting the Roma families. They assist them in clothing and school books.

Asmet pointed out that there are barriers because of which children do not attend schools. Ways need to be found to work with the parents. He gave his opinion that in Bitola at the moment exist barriers from a economic and an intolerant aspect. He asked a question: Which method should we use to increase the presence of the Roma parents in the schools?

Representatives of the school pointed out that they have a teacher,- a person who helps children with speech deficiency . There is no network organized for cutting off social assistance so that children could be let to go to school. Part of the Roma population is trying to put their children in special schools so that they could benefit from the state for free food, books etc. It is not appropriate to label healthy children as children with special needs. They do not cooperate during testing of the children.

Samedin Kanannovski a mediator pointed out on a case where a president of a Roma NGO wanted to enroll his grandchild in a special class. There are suggestions for penalties agaisnt the parents but also for the doctors who supported them in that process.

A teacher from E.S. “Gorgi Sugarev” had a suggestion to visit the Commission for categorization which does not give a functional diagnosis, they record light mental retardation.

Asmet asked them if they thought appropriate to present this condition in the state educational inspectorate, on which the teachers agreed.

The procedure for declaring a child as mentally retarded is easier when the parent asks for it. There about 20 Roma children.

Nina Pozarska, a psychologist pointed out that the number of enrolled Roma children increased and that there are mixed classes. There is only one ethnically clean class in the nine year education. All of the children which are enrolled as regular are put in mixed classes.

Asmet pointed the case for appearance of elite schools in Kumanovo, where the Roma children were not accepted.

Samedin agreed and he also pointed out that 2-3 years back some teachers have been discriminatory. but since September this has changed and cooperation between the pupils and the teachers has been successful.

In relation to regularity of the children, the principle said that they are sending invitations to the parents to notify them if a child is missing from class. But after they send a second invitation the inspectorate takes on the obligation. How do we get closer to the parents?

One of teachers pointed out that he is working with only 10 Roma pupils, whose parents she had not seen for two years. Only one parent attends the parental meetings even though everyone gets an invitation.

Samedin said that they are raking the same measures. The parents are being invited orally and in written for the debate. Erhana went to their homes, however they did not respond to the debate.

Dimce Dimcevski, president of the Parent’s council pointed out the need for workshops with the parents. “The education of their children depends on them, not the parents”. They are working with an NGO in order to solve the problem with the dropping out. They bring the invitations directly. Last week on request by an NGO a representative was included to attend the sessions. There is a Roma parents in the school board and in the Parent’s council. In fact there are 3 Roma parents in the Parent’s council. The entire problem is with the parents and not with the children. There is a proposition to use some benefits.

However, Asmet pointed out that the NRC has brought a firm decision not to give out anything, The state needs to coordinate and to work efficiently with the social services.

A question was asked if there is education for adults. From the school they answered that the adult education will begin in February.

Denis Ademovski, an activist in the non governmental sector suggested a group to be created with only Roma parents. This would be a body which would function within the framework of the school in order to attract more parents.

Asmet asked how many local communities are there in Bair.

Denis said that there were three.

Asmet pointed out that “Bairska svetlina” does not have field contacts with Roma. We must be boring in order to make something. The Roma history is not very known. It is not mentally engraved with the Roma to send their children to school. The problem comes from the poor economic condition.

The teachers concluded that awareness of the parents needs to be raised.

Denis pointed out that with creating of the group an opportunity will be given to get closer to the parents. They have initiative groups..

Asmet pointed out that if there is already a structure, there is no need for creation of other bodies. Field work is required.

Samedin suggested that it would be appropriate to create trainings/workshops and to invite the parents on those workshops. Also the team from the E.S. should be present and to invite the parents of the dropped out children.

The logopediatitian said that that the teachers did not have a problem with anything and that they will do everything in their power just to interest the Roma children to visit classes regularly.

Bajramov Nazmi, a parent said that many parents are grateful to the team of Bairska Svetlina and the schools. The parents themselves need to be aware for their children.

Asmet asked the parents is there any way to draw their attention…

One of the parents said that the awareness needs to be raised on a higher level. Examples need to be given from every day life.

The principle pointed out the example of Esma Redzepova. Highlighting the difference between a Gypsy and Roma.

The President of the parent’s council asked how to solve the problem with the parents who go to do season work?

Asmet suggested for the Roma problematic to be shown in the media. The lobby group needs to promote positive image for the Roma children. The Ministry of education needs to be invited to come out on the field in Bitola.

The debate ended with several concrete problems for which proper solutions are needed to be found. From the debate we concluded that the parents are not interested enough for their children to be successful in school. Almost all Roma pupils go to “Gorgi Sugarev”, a fact that might lead in creating of a segregated school. No one from the Municipality attended the debate as well as representatives from the Ministry of education, the State Educational Inspectorate nor the media. The parents who were present were mostly NGO activists. This is why we evaluated this debate as one of the most poorly organized by the mediators.

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PRILEP

The debate in Prilep was held on the 13.11.2007, in the offices of the Municipality of Prilep, on which 30 participants attended, 7 of them were representatives from the school, 10 parents, a councilor for education, a representative from the Parent’s council, journalists and activists from the non governmental sector.

The debate was opened by Mr. Asmet elezovski, manager of the NRC.

Nesime Salioska, a local mediator in Prilep called on the principles of the schools to provide a general image for the situation with the Roma children in the schools.

Violeta Laskoska, principle of the E.S. “Dobre Jovanoski” gave many compliments about the campaign as well as for the work of the mediators. She said that they have a good cooperation with the mediators involved in the campaign. She also expressed her impressions about the film and said that their school is always open for cooperation. 70% of the Roma children go to E.S. “Dobre Jovanoski”.

Jelica Solunoska, principle of the E.S. “Kire Gavrilov” said that in their school there are only 10 Roma pupils. They assist them in food and school books. She said that the families need to be educate, with special accents on the mothers and also to increase their awareness about the importance of a higher level of education. The main contributor for a successful person is the mother, an example which we saw from the film.

Mr. Elezovski expressed his dissatisfaction about the nonattendance of the parents; he asked if there were some barriers. Also a question was raised if the Roma parents attend parental meetings.

Mr. Elezovski informed that the Ministry of labor and social affairs started an initiative for increasing of social assistance in order for the children with financial difficulties to buy books. The representatives of the schools were instructed to keep the children without school books.

Also a question was asked if they have registered cases of children without school books.

The answer was that there had not been such cases.

In the meantime Mr. Marjan Matrakovski, a councilor for education of the municipality of Prilep arrived who said that the initiative for desegregation which would be implented next year is supported by the local self government.

Mr. Matrakoski, apologized for the delay because he attended on some other working meetings. He informed that in the following three years sports halls are predicted to be built for the schools “Kire Gavriloski” and “Dobre Jovanoski”.

A priority in the school “Dobre Jovanoski” is to fix the toilets, a project which they applied for to USAID. He said that those are the segments in which the local self-government is involved.

Reonization is also part of the work of the local self government. The schools were asked if they had a document with old reonization, in order to have an image about it.

Mr. Matrakoski said that the work with the parents and children needs to be realized by the expert services in the schools. He also informed that the number of Roma in high schools. In September a lobby group was created for enrollment of students in high schools.

He also informed about the law for obligatory high school and that because of this law the local mediators must perform more intensive work with the parents.

Nesime, a local mediator from Prilep explained why the reonization is important. She said that a large number of Roma pupils go to “Dobre Jovanoski” which points out on segregation as a negative occurrence. The pupils from the settlement Trizla need to be divided in the two schools, so that positive integration may take effect.

The reonization needs to be prepared this year and implemented the next year.

Zeko Asanovski, a parent who lives in Trizla introduced himself as a member of the parent’s council. He asked a question if there is going to be some financial assistance or some kind of scholarship for the children and if children with lower grades could participate.

Mr. Elezovski informed that scholarships are awarded by foreign foundations, to high school students with high grades.

Every student has a right to apply for scholarship in REF and SOROS.

The Ministry for education had an open call for scholarships of high school pupils and students. The local self government does not have finances for scholarships.

Mr. Matrakovski said that the local self government can not afford scholarships, it only helps in the infrastructure and support of positive policies.

To make a difference between the Ministry of education and Local self government.

Budapest provided scholarships, but they were terminated.

The parent again asked if there are scholarships only on a national or international level also…

The scholarship is being realized on a national level. The program for sholarships for high school students ended.

Redzepovski Agim, a parent of a child in first grade asked a question why school books were not acquired for all Roma children.

Mr. Elezovski gave a personal example for planning of a family. He pointed out that the responsibility falls with the parents.

NRC is a bridge for more effective approach to institutions. The Roma need to be aware to evaluate their situation and to determine their own path in life. The books are responsibility of the Ministry of Labor and Social affairs.

The Ministry provided 10 sets of school book for the poorest children and were given to the schools.

A single parent, asked where to turn for help. Mr. Elezovski replied that he should turn to the Ministry of Labor and social affairs, as the coordinator for implementation of the National strategy.

He as a parent has the right to turn to the relevant institutions with facts. There are Roma advisers in the Ministry of education. Initiatives should be taken on time in order to solve their problems.

This is a difficult period and all problems can not be resolved at once. our work is a process and it takes time.

Nesime said that we need to identify quality mechanisms for improvement of the educational process.

A parent of a high school student who attends the High school for Traffic said that his daughter applied for scholarship in the Ministry of education, with all the relevant documentation. However they have not yet received a reply.

Mr. Elezovski asked what was the problem for non attendance of the Roma parents.

The parents responded that this happens because of inappropriate clothing. The next meeting needs to be organized in “Dobre Jovanoski”.

Attention must be turned to the children who sit in the last bench. Some children even need to be taught how to hold a pencil and they are afraid to even ask if they could go to the bathroom. Some children in fifth grade do not know how to write. the teachers must pay more attention on the quality of education and to increase the awareness with the children.

The parent, Turan asked why “Dobre Jovanoski” does not have free food for the children.

Elezovski suggested to leave room for the other people to talk.

Ljubica Taleska, a councilor from “Dobre Jovanoski” complimented the cooperation with the NGOs. When she gave a statement for the media, she expressed her gratitude to an NGO for youths for providing the children with school books.

On behalf of Inter SOS children received free school books and they urge for the children to have school materials. From 1300 enrolled children, 800 are Roma, this is why they can not afford free food.

The Ministry of education used to pay for food, but now that is over.

Mr. Elezovski expressed his satisfaction that there are Roma parents in the parent’s council and maybe they can create some kind of initiative for the food problem.

He informed about the IPA funds which can be used in education and he also asked if the parents would feel better if they get visitations from the teachers in their homes.

One of the parents said that this was a practice before and that it would be fine. The parents work to survive and sometimes forget about the children.

A teacher from “Dobre Jovanoski” said that physical appearance and hygiene are not that important for regular attendance. The important things are interest and persistence. There are parental meetings, collective as well as individual.

All of the children need to go to school.

The councilor from “Kire Gavriloski” said that the number of Roma children in that school was greater in the past. He hopes that the reonization will have positive outcomes. He considers the initiative for on time enrolment is good. However the largest problem are the parents and their influence. There must not be an ultimatum that if there are no books, they will not go to school. The Roma children have been accepted and they have the necessary attention.

An announcement was made that in December a meeting is being planed with the Secretary of state about education being more and more present in the Roma community.

Teachers were called to say if there are any problems or if they have suggestions.

A teacher from “Dobre Jovanoski” said that cooperation with the NGOs is on a very high level. The Roma Strategy says that they would be pleased if 90% of the ROMA CHILDREN ARE ENROLLED. There is solid cooperation with the parents one Macedonian and one Roma in the Parent’s council.

There is a research for presence and absence of children in percents. 12-14% dropped out in 2005. Now the number has increased to 30%. There are 6 teachers in first grade, and less and less parents.

The parents of the children who are solid pupils are present. Additional classes have been organized, invitations were sent to the parents and activities have been organized. A suggestion was given to work with the parents whose children are problematic.

A teacher from “Dobre Jovanoski” said that the presence of Roma parents in the Parent’s council is on a high level. Present parents were the ones, whose children were regular.

Mr. Elezovski asked why the parents are being passive. One of the parents said that they would never be interested for his child.

One of the teachers said that poverty takes its toll, but as a parent he would find item for his child. Even if the child came to school with only one notebook that would be enough. Also there are no problems if the child uses photocopied books. He does not understand why the Roma are inciting their children not to go to school. Education is a key for everything. Each teacher will have the time to talk to the parents and are ready to receive them.

One of the teachers expressed his opinion about the Law for elementary education that pupils pass first through fourth grade regardless of their success, and the Law is being misused because in fifth grade about 60 children repeat the year.

The councilor from “Dobre Jovanoski” said that there is some improvement. Cooperation with the NGOs contributes for the presence of the pupils in the schools. The number of children in high school has increased.

One of the parents suggested to hold a parental meeting about the problems which concern the children in the E.S. “Dobre Jovanoski”.

On this debate the parents and the children brought out their problems and all of the present people were acquainted with specific situations. The exposure of Mr. Matrakovski was positive. There is a general tendency for overcoming of many important problems. With the assistance of the mediators the segregation problem of the Roma pupils in “Dobre Jovanoski” will be resolved. However the parents are still reluctant about the true role of education and they do not know the right way to fight for their rights.

Only a representative from the State Educational Inspectorate did not attend. We evaluated the debate as well organized from the mediators.

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KAVADARCI

The debate in Kavadraci was held on the 14.11.2007 in the offices of Municipality of Kavadarci, in the presence of 20 people, 10 of them were representatives from schools, 8 parents, also there were activists from the non governmental sector and journalists.

The debate was opened by Mr. Asmet Elezovski, manager of the NRC. In his opening speech he explained the purpose of the debate and the need to discuss the issue of education of Roma children. Mr. Elezovski asked what are the problems with which the children face in schools, the relations of their parents with the school and the representatives who are working with the Roma children.

After the short introduction free space was given for discussion to identify the problems.

Raim Sulejmanov, Roma activist was interested to know whether appropriate invitations were sent to the Ministry of education and how much has the campaign been promoted in the institutions. The main argument for this question was that they expected a greater number of participants.

On this question Mr. Elezovski answered that the campaign which is being implemented this year is especially intended for Roma parents. He once again pointed out that our purpose is to include a maximum number of Roma children in education. The National Roma Centrum regularly sends all of its information and reactions to the relevant institutions. Also they are being informed about all of our notifications, requests, analyses, reactions, etc. in the outmost respect for laws of R. Macedonia.

We sent out reports and reactions to the relevant institutions according to legal regulatives.

Raim also asked if the minister has heard us.

In situations when the law is being broken than the normal thing is for the institutions to be informed so that they could react, said Mr. Elezovski. In the opinion of Mr. Elezovski there is fear with the Roma community from Kavadarci, he asked the present people if there is dropping out from school, what are the problems there, and how much are the parents present in schools.

The parents were also called to state the problems with which their children face.

Dusanka Pavlova, a councilor in “D. A. Gaberot” pointed out that there are about 50 Roma pupils, who are included in regular classes. This school has been included in the program of the Open Society Institute in partnership with the Dutch Embassy in Macedonia named as Equal educational possibilities for Roma children.

The councilor of this school explained the program and that their purpose is to provide support for the Roma pupils. Within the frames of this project the Roma pupils visit additional classes five times a month for each subject. During this discussion the opinion of the councilor was that help is very useful for the Roma children. Within the frames of the same program all Roma pupils received a full set of free school books and other necessary school materials. There are 8 pupils with excellent grades. The councilor also said that awareness of the parents has also increased in regard of education.

The teachers have realized extraordinary cooperation with the pupils. In 2006/2007 all of the children who received school books returned them on time. Also there is good cooperation with the parents. Only 2-3 families were identified, who do not send their children to school but they have a justified reason for not doing so..

Mr. Elezovski also asked in what manner the school invites parents. The councilor replied that they regularly invite parents in written form but also orally through the pupils.

There were also cases when the above mentioned families on time inform the school that their children would not attend class. On the question do the councilors visit Roma families before the children are enrolled, the answer was that they have lists and send written invitations to those parents who have not yet enrolled their children.

One of the parents Elvis Mustafov objected that the teachers from “D. A. Gaberot” have not yet invited him to a parental meeting. He also added that the additional classes in first grade are too much for a first grader. He also said that during the additional classes the teachers do not have control over 2-3 children who create a chaotic atmosphere in the entire group and the teachers did not invite the parents of those children at all to inform them. Also the additional classes are not creative and does motivate the children. His proposition was to hold more parental meetings so that every parent could be on time informed about the success or failure of the child. He also proposed parental meetings to be held in all schools only with Roma parents.

The councilor from “D.A. Gaberot” answered that additional classes are with individual methods of teaching, that the children are being helped according to their needs..

Kiro Pendev, a councilor in E.S. “Straso Pindzur”, said that in the previous school years they did not have such a large number of Roma pupils. They have 17 regular and 8 irregular Roma pupils. The school regularly enrolls children every school year. They come across problems because the parents say that their children do not attend school because they are poor.

This school noted that the other pupils are being demotivated and neglected, with a special accent on those children who are not in the above mentioned project. About parental meetings the parents are informed in written form or orally.

However the councilor said that they burn the given books and last year only 1 student finished 8^th grade. They drop out during their 8 year education.

The local mediator Atidze needs to visit the parents and to ask from them the reason why they do not let their children to go to school and according to Mr. Elezovski the Roma community does not communicate well with the schools and other social institutions.

Asmet asked if there still unenrolled children in Kavadarci.

From the E.S. “Straso Pindzur” representatives said that every child is enrolled. They send invitations to the irregular pupils, even the Educational Inspectorate is being informed. The councilor from “Straso Pindzur” said that if books are provided the interest with Roma pupils will increase.

The Ministry for labor and social affairs is responsible for the condition of the social cases, Mr. Elezovski said.

Dusanka Pavlova from Vatasa informed that the project is going through FIOOM, and not through some NGO. The largest contribution from FIOOM’s project is the interest of the pupils and the responsibility is also greater.

The councilor from “D. A. Gaberot” from Kavadarci said that they have 19 Roma first graders. In these last years the dropping out has decreased. But they have not been regularly attending classes, 80% of them in fact. They do not answer invitations, they only answer when the school says they are going to have to pay a fine.

There was a case when a 12 year old child was enrolled in first grade this year. But later he dropped out. Last year two children dropped out one in fourth and one in fifth grade. the parents of the children who dropped out are not interested and they set conditions to find school books for the children.

The mediator needs to visit the schools at least 1-2 times per month and to gather information about the children who drop out and to explain to the parents that that schools are not obliged to provide the children with school books. From 1-4^th grade the pupils are regular but after they drop out.

A teacher from “D. A. G.”, Vatasa pointed out that parents need to have individual interest and to come individually.

The debate ended with achieving positive contact between the mediator and representatives from the schools and was concluded for the mediator to be more engaged in the following period. However, the Roma from this region are not enough organized, there are no positive examples among them and weak communication between the Roma community and the schools. Social and existential issues cause problems in the educational process. NRC believes that the mediator needs to be more engaged on the field and in the schools.

Representatives from the Ministry of Education and the State educational inspectorate did not attend the debate. The debate could have been better organized by the mediator.

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VELES

The debate in Veles was held on the 15.11.2007, in the E.S. “Blagoj Kirkov” in presence of 25 participants, 13 of them were representatives from the school, 9 parents, a representative of the Biro for development of education and an education adviser from the municipality and journalists.

After presentation of the film and results from the campaign, Mr. Elezovski asked what is the cooperation with the mediator, if there are any problems with the parents, what are the conditions for additional classes.

Mariora Pancevska, a councilor in “Blagoj Kirkov” informed that 15-20% in their school are Roma pupils, but many of them drop out after the 5^th grade. Her message was that every parent should see the film. 70% of their pupils have parents who are unemployed or do something, but not much, privately. The pupils live in difficult conditions. This year the number of first graders increased. The school gives opportunities for every parent to be included in the school life. The parent’s council has 3-4 Roma parents, and one of the parents is involved in the school board.

The school pays attention to each of their pupils regardless of their national belonging. Everyone needs to be engaged in involving the parents in the education of their children as well as in their learning habits.

A suggestion was given for CDs with the film to be given to every Roma family as well to make a brochure about the content and message of the film.

A councilor in Blagoj Kirkov for the older group agreed with his colleague.

He said that they successfully cooperate with the non governmental organizations. He has not seen any neglect of the Roma children during classes. But they have problems with the parents. The parents need to be educated. They did have visits, from the NGO Romani bah. However there are still some children who need to be enrolled.

Mr. Elezovski asked a series of questions how to win over the Roma parents, are there cases of unacceptance of Roma children and if there is segregation and are the parents pleased with the educational cadre.

A parent stated that there very pleased from the relations and work of the teachers and he agreed that the responsibility is with the parents.

A teacher from Blagoj Kirkov informed that he has 12 Roma children. The teachers visit Roma parents. the school is financed by FIOOM and they try maximally to literate children.

In the opinion of this teacher is that there are many illiterate parents. They are very young and have many of them already have several children. At the “Stul” university there is only one Roma student.

Kosta Dimovski from the Biro for Development of Education said that he was very impressed from the film and the presentation. He said that he was an experienced teacher with 18 years of teaching experience. He noticed that the classrooms in the school are very good arranged. He as a representative of the Biro for development said that he has visited all of the schools.

He also commented on the teacher-pupil relationship. If the teacher does not like children he should not be a teacher. He also said that he understands the social status of the parents and said that non governmental organizations can help the parents to improve this condition and that an activity could be taken to educate the families, in order to provide learning conditions which is a responsibility of the parent.

He also said that there are not any teachers who want to degrade the Roma children and nobody offends the Roma children.

The educational cadre is being re-educated and the percentage in regard of re-education has been increasing. He pointed out that there should be more Roma on the meeting and recommended not to globalize the issue of discrimination over the children in general.

Danica Arsova, a teacher in the E. S. “Jordan Hadzi Konstantinov-Dzinot” introduced herself as a teacher with 33 years of experience. She has always been going on the field so that she could gather children to enroll them in school. When the school had a mess hall the children were regular. And she suggested something to be done regarding the mess hall.

The children have been accepted by the educational cadre. There is some absence of children as well as some dropping out. The parents lie to the teachers to justify their children’s absence. She also said the children should be more regular.

She pointed out on an example when a school councilor was driven out by an old lady, when he tried to enroll her grandchild. But also there are examples when a parent comes to enroll his child, sometimes later, but the child becomes a regular pupil.

Mr. Elezovski asked how many parents have been invited. The mediator said that 20 parents were invited.

Ruska Todorova, a councilor in E. S. “Blagoj Kirkov” said that the parents do not answer the invitations. There are cases when children come alone to get enrolled. Awareness with the Roma parents must be raised. The Red Cross hands out packages, last year they gave clothes to many people. School books have been gathered from other children and she said that tolerate maximum 2 months absence. She recommended for the parents to be educated about their rights and obligations and to give school materials to all first graders.

Kostadin Damcevski from the Biro of development said if all of these information are not used properly, then there will not be any kind of effect. If there are more meetings with the parents than the effects would be more positive. He recommended not just to asses the situation but to react to it in the appropriate manner.

The parent is the main educational factor. Our purpose is to improve the education to both parent and the child. He also said that at the moment their institution holds seminars and re-educates teachers for the nine year education.

Zati Ramadani, a representative of a Roma non governmental organization from Veles informed that they are working with 140 children from the E. S. “Blagoj Kirkov”. He said that not even the excellent pupils got school books. In the Municipality there are people who live in one room and get 2000 denars welfare.

The councilor from E. S. “Blagoj Kirkov” said that there are parents who have the money to send their children to school but they do not want to.

Todor Najdov, the principle from Jordan Hadzi Konstantinov-Dzinot said that they have been informed about the social position of the Roma in Veles. He said that the blame should put on the parents for abuse of the children’s labor. He pointed out on cases when Roma children are being taken for grape gathering, they work at the market place, etc. The children are being used to work. He said that they are ready to introduce education for adults. The principle of E. S. “Blagoj Kirkov” pointed out that attention should be brought on education of adults and he also said that they have realized good cooperation with Romani Bah.

Ferdi Huseinov, a parent said that if a child wants to go to school there should not be a need for mess halls.

Sebihan Ahmedovska, a parent, said that not just Roma parents need financial assistance. There are parents who want to send their children to school, but can not afford it and on the other hand there are parents who do not let their children go to school.

Elica Goceva, a teacher, gave an example for a non Roma child sitting next to a Roma child, and that non Roma child got good grades but did not deserve them and the Roma child did not get good grades.

Te principle of “Blagoj Kirkov” commented about the teaching license in education. The teachers are being put on a tender so that the parents could choose them. It is the right of the parent to enroll his child wherever he wants, regardless of the reonization.

A teacher from “Jordan Hadzi Konstantinov-Dzinot” said if a mess hall should be built than it should be for all children.

G-din Elezovski said that Macedonia has an obligation for all of the citizens to provide equal education opportunities. He also said that the schools need to work with the local self government.

The debate in Veles was held in a constructive atmosphere. Besides the absence of a representative from the State Educational Inspectorate the debate was well organized by the mediator and was concluded that he is in constant contact and positive communication with schools and parents. There is certain interest with the parents, and positive approach is needed from the school staff towards the Roma pupils. There is a hidden attitude that the Roma pupils can not be good students and are not being encouraged with positive grades. One of the main problems is that many Roma are being declared as Turks, which complicates resolving of the problems of the Roma population.

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VINICA

The debate in Vinica was held on the 19.11.2007 in the offices of Municipality of Vinica, in the presence of 64 people, 16 of them were teachers, 46 parents, an adviser for education and a journalist.

The debate was opened by Mr. Elezovski.

A parent from the elementary school “Goce Delcev” complained that there is no food for the first graders, just for the ones in pre school. “The children go to school hungry and come back hungry. The welfare we get is just enough to pay the electric bill”.

Ekrem Ismailov, a parent of a first grader asked what school gives out school books.

Demir Osmanov, a referent for Roma issues in the Municipality informed that there is a project in the E. S, “Slavco Stojmenski” and all of the children there get everything but that is not the case in this school.

Emir, a parent said that this was a project supported by Equal opportunities. There are problems amongst colleagues because only Roma children get school book, materials, bags etc. These kind of donations have negative effects. He expressed his concern that if the project continues in this way, they will have a serious problem with the Macedonians. If books are being given, the system should be changed and books should be given to Macedonian children as well, on the contrary there will be complications.

Mr. Elezovski, pointed out that NRC was not there to talk about books and the equal opportunities project, but to discuss how to find ways to motivate the parents to send their children to school. He also said that the Decade is a process accepted by the South-eastern European countries and still there are no funds which would be intended for specific activities by the state. Then the usual questions were asked, why the children are not attending school, do they have birth certificates, is there discrimination or segregation. The teachers were asked to discuss!

Jordan Stojanov, a councilor in E.S. “Slavko Stojmenov” said that according to the reonization the largest part of the Roma children go to this school. On the question why and how the Roma children are less and less present in education, the councilor said that the economic status is the first problem. However the schools help the children with school books, school materials and food through the project Equal opportunities and all of the children have additional three classes each day.

However there is absence, 80-90% of absenteeism is made by Roma children.

The problem for the children is that they do come to classes regularly. Until the 4^th grade the children are more regular and after the fifth grade they start dropping out. Not all of the parents are responsible for this. The parents who show interest in their children are parents with finished eighth grade or with high school. The awareness of the parents needs to be raised. The parents do not attend parental meetings. Instead of sending their children to school they are teaching them to play instruments.

Mr. Elezovski asked whether there are Roma parents in the parent’s council.

The representatives of the schools said that there are interested but are not regular on meetings.

Olga Atanasova, a teacher in E. S. “Goce Delcev” was put to work in a Roma class since 1974. She had a class with 18 Roma and 7 mentally retarded children. The school put her under a condition; if she was to continue to work she must teach Roma. Paretns in the past have said to the teachers to open the eyes of the children. And today parents argue with the teachers for their child’s failure or lack of manners.

There were roomers that the children were not allowed to eat from a plate, but the children lie. The schoolbooks arrived on time, but the children made paper airplanes from them. Now the teachers became dependant on the pupils. IT often happens for the teacher to buy notebooks for the pupils.

Risto Stamenkov, an advisor for education in the municipality asked if the parents like their children to go to school. If the parents do not want for their children to go school, neither would the children want to go. He pointed out that work must be done with the parents. The teachers are obliged to work with the children. Each gift must be developed, whether it is in music or something else. Bajsa was pointed out as an example.

Blagoj Iliev, a teacher in E. S. “Goce Delcev” appealed about the importance of education. The school has a policy for attracting the attention of Roma children. According to the reonisation half of the Roma pupils must go to E. S. “Goce Delcev”. But this is not how it must happen. He said that there is a segregated school. There are only 5-6% Roma pupils in this school. The habit for going to school is a responsibility of the teachers.

The parents must be involved in education. Cooperation with parents is being realized in the school. The mediator must visit the school more often. Slowly the schools are starting to be on a local level.

Mr. Elezovski explained the role of the mediator that actually the mediator is a bridge of relations between the parents-school-local self government. He also asked if the law for obligatory education is being applied.

The schools confirmed and said that there are already fined parents. Also a suggestion was added for more of these kinds of debates.

Nesat, a representative from NGO Dajakere Chave said that the parents were pleased, because their children received school books. but however the children have been complaining on stomach and head aches because they are over worked in school, they have to stay in school from 10-18:00 o’clock each day, because of the additional 3 classes.

Asmet said that education must enter each Roma house.

The councilor from “Slavco Stojmenov” explained about the possibilities of the children and their mental capabilities to visit additional classes. The parents need to consider them selves lucky because additional classes are only for the Roma children and that they are learning according to the regular program for classes.

Muharem Sulejmanov, a parent said that 90% of the present people on this debate were illiterate. And that they should be pleased that their children go on additional classes, because they can not help their children in learning.

A question was asked whether the parents are pleased with the teachers.

The parents replied that they are very pleased; however a problem was that their children do not know the Macedonian language very well.

A social worker in “Slavco Stojmenski” said that now he would not discuss the project. The results will be shown later. However the best results come from the children in 1, 2 and 3^rd grade. He said that at the very beginning the children have language problems. The greatest resistance is with the parents when enrolling their children they set terms for books, food, clothing, etc. But they need to be patient and persistent. Most of the pupils drop out in the fifth grade. There are also marriages between minors, especially with the Roma. The school has advisory talks especially for minor marriages. But no one show up. The children from 5-8^th grade do not even carry books.

Erdzan said that the children do not have an idol.

The debate in Vinica was very constructive, with excellent feedback from the parents. Both sides (teachers and parents) were revolted and critical. The parents seemed unaware about the quality of education, but on the other hand they seemed intimidated to express their problems. The debate was well organized by the mediator.

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KOCANI

The debate was held on the 11.12.07, after two weeks delay because on the 20.11.2007 no one attended, so the mediator had to organize it better so that we could have a successful debate. The debate was held in the school “Rade Kratovce”, where 76 participants were present, 26 were teachers, 34 parents, an adviser for education from the municipality, but without the presence of journalists.

The debate in Kocani was mainly about several issues: Do the parents regularly attend meetings, are they satisfied by the relation with the teachers and do their children get qualitative classes.

Violeta Sokolova, a councilor in Rade Kratovce at the beginning claimed that the Roma children there are not being disadvantaged, they have been invited on time for enrollment in May and visited in September. About the school books she pointed out that before when the city government had the possibilities gave school books to all socially endangered families.

Idic Nedet, a parent of 2 children who went to “Rade Kratovce” talked about the work of the parent’s council. He pointed out that in all elementary and high schools in Kocani, Roma re not being represented enough in parent’s councils. Only two schools have Roma parents in the councils. “Roma should be included; they ought to deliver the messages from those meetings to the entire Roma community. We are the ones to blame for not attending those meetings, we do not have an interest for our children’s learning, but also the teachers are guilty. They must insist to deliver messages to the parents; maybe some of the children do not say anything because of poor grades.”

Ali Saidov, a parent talked about his children and grandchildren who go to kindergartens, but only for 2-4 hours because of the distance to the school. “We are grateful to the caretakers there for helping our children learn Macedonian, songs. We are also pleased from the school, but there is one thing that worries me. We live in Stamen Manov and the school there is 2-3 km away. We want for them to go to Rade Kratovce, but we can not. There is also Malina pop Ivanova, but it too far away and the child will need to walk a lot. “

On this discussion, the councilor in Rade Kratovce said the parents do not care about the reonisation and those children who should go to a different school goes here. For those who are not regular, it is not only the teachers who are to be blamed but also the parents who do not answer even when they get invitations.

Lupco Gorlev, an advisor for education in the Municipality recommended to the present that if we would like to use the key maximally support should be given to the mediator Nevrije, so that she could do her job well.

He also pointed out: “Dilemmas with you exist, and will exist, the stereotypes people have for you can be overcame but it would be difficult, we need to open the doors for every Roma child so that they could be like Vaska and achieve good results. Also you, the parents must help your children and to be happy for their successes. There are educated cadres in Kocani who can contribute in the development of the economics and sports, education and will raise your family’s standards. They will help you to surpass your ancestor’s trades, you will not have to collect iron, you will not have to knit baskets, but you will have a better life. But you can not expect from others to be initiators, you can not wait from Asmet, you need to be the initiators, we must act together. You should not be pleased if your child finishes fourth or eighth grade, this is not enough. The new laws require obligatory elementary education.

So where is the problem? The problem is in our behavior. Open your hope so that children may come out and to enter the school. The teachers have already understood what needs to be done, without children we can not have classes. The main purpose is for all children to go to school, but they have to well mannered, to put confidence in them, our responsibilities are different but they are towards one goal. One will raise, other will teach, but all with try to steer the children towards being a responsible adult.

With this your economic status will improve and many times I disagree with you for not sending your children because they do not have books. If you put that aside, then the Macedoina children will have an interest to help your children. We need to have a different relationship towards them, but we should not put the Roma children in front of the Macedonian children because in that way we would discriminate them, all children must be equal.

The Municipality of Kocani must ensure for all Roma children to be equally represented in all schools according to the reonisation. I have never been in favor for all Roma children to be put in one school.

Now we have obligatory high school education, but this does not mean we should punish anyone, raising awareness is the issue here and not punishment. The teachers are also willing to help; they want their classrooms full, nit just with 10-15 children.

Next year every Roma child must be enrolled.

In high school education things are starting to move but not fast enough. In “Ljupco Santov” there are only 5 pupils, 4 of them are girls, in “Vikintiev” there are 34 pupils, only 8 of them are girls. If we can enroll all of the children on the streets who have finished elementary education, next year we will have a larger number.

Also some of the are showing interest in the high school for music and I am glad because of the results of the Roma children, the ice is begging to brake…“

Karov Simeon, a teacher in “Rade Kratovce”, talked about the parent’s council and the way parent’s are being chosen: “I have 5 Roma in my class and we when were choosing council members, there were no volunteers, so I suggested just to pick someone in random. About regularity – we do not have some larger problems with that, the numbers from 5-8^th grade vary. As far parent’s interests go, I had children whose parents I have not seen ever but they finish. I invite them but they do not show up. However these are individual cases it does not occur massively. If someone in this “triangle” stalls, the success fails. We, the teachers do not stall, when the pupils are regular, then there are results. But the problem is when parents do not answer our invitations whether for parental or individual meetings. The parent does not have to be called to come to the school, he knows where it is and the school is always open, the parents can come talk to us anytime. The good thing is that awareness is being raised. Both the parents and the teachers are starting to show results. Your work is all right, the debate is very useful and our classrooms are full but the children should not only finish eighth grade. I have met children who were excellent in elementary school, but did not continue to high school. Who stops these children from achieving something? Every one must think about that…

None of us says that we should pick the children by beauty or color, we teach them equally. The problem is that the children in their first years in school do not know the Macedonian language well enough, I am sorry that I do not know to speak Roma I just have not tried. When I speak to a child that does not speak Macedonian well I always ask some of his friends to explain to him. But there is not always translation present. The parents know that his child will study together with Macedonian pupils, so the parents must teach their children to speak Macedonian”.

Sefki Tairov, a parent talked about the problems in high school education. His child from 5-8^th grade finished school with only 3 books and was excellent. But in high school he got poor grades. So he believes that school is discriminatory. He said that he was satisfied with the elementary “Malina pop Ivanova”, but in high school he has a problem.

One of the present teachers said that children must study more hard in high school, because the material is larger. So this might not be discrimination.

The parent still claimed that his child studies hard enough and he will demand a public test for his child to prove his knowledge. One of the mothers present said that she can not afford to buy books for her four children who are all regular pupils. One of the teachers said that all the regular students get school books, except three classes from UNICEF, because they are adults, but the others have everything they need. She also added that the problems are being solved in the school. Children do not attend classes, even though they picked those classes, the problems can be solved if the children go to school.

One of the parents said that they accept the criticism from the teachers, that it is their fault, but why do the teachers claim that there is no discrimination, but they keep defending themselves.

The debate ended with several practical advices to some parents how to help their children. Considering that the debate was organized from the second time there was an excellent feedback from the teachers and the parents and it was very constructive. A representative from the State Educational Inspectorate did not attend. There is certain awareness for education among the parents, but they are not enough informed how can they get some benefit from the state. One negative thing is that many Roma represent themselves as Turks. There were some educated Roma who were not employed and there is a mild intolerance of non Roma towards Roma, but also among the Roma.

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STIP

On the 03.12.2007 we held the debate in Stip, in the elementary school “Goce Delcev”. There were 47 participants, 11 were teachers, 35 parents, an advisor for education, activists from the non governmental sector, but without presence of journalists.

The debate in Stip began with the usual questions and comments regarding social issues, the amount of social assistance which is not high enough for the costs for school books. However the people were pleased by the way their children are accepted, in the “Goce Delcev” elementary. The parents also expressed gratitude to NRC in relation to the school bags and materials which NRC provided in September.

One of the parents, Anife Durmisofa, expressed her non satisfaction from the school “Toso Arsov”. She considers that Roma children are not very well accepted by the other children there. Her daughter is the sixth grade and she can not even write her name down. She did not went to school for a month because the other children were beating her. She does do so well at school, her professors do not accept her, and she sits in the last school bench. She has all the books and her mother even paid some student to come and teach her, but there was some improvement. “The child lost her identity” said the mother. In that school there are about 30 Roma pupils.

The teacher, Ivanova Pavlina from “Dimitar Vlahov” elementary said that she was acquainted with their problems, that the school provides everything necessary, but the pupils still do not come to school. She knows that the parents take away their children when they need to do season work. She also said that she visits the parents to explain to them that they must let their children to go to school. Those pupils who are regular often learn everything, but those who are not can not even spell their name right. The school provides everything, but the problem is with the parents. They need to be educated. She explained that once she has had 27 children in her class who were all Roma and that that was a UNICEF project, but those children were older.

A councilor from “Goce Delcev” elementary, Nikolova Cvetanka informed that in this school there is such a class for older pupils, who were 15 years old but it did not succeed. The parents of the more successful children asked for them to be put in mixed classes. But they were very much older than the other children there.

The councilor expressed her gratitude to the NGOs and their cooperation. Together they visit the parents at home; they organized a summer camp with mixed groups for various artworks, excursions, celebration of the 8^th of April etc. “We need to develop co-life, regardless of social condition. We are working for the children to be regular, although some of the children sometimes go to season work, sell their books etc. Without education there is no future for any child” pointed out the councilor Nikolova. She also pointed out on the problem with the girls who after fourth grade drop out, because their parents are afraid that their children will go into minor marriages.

A teacher Roza Stoilkova from “Goce Delcev” pointed out that only the Roma children do not come to school in the morning shift. She believes that the parents are to blame. She said that many of the parents are unemployed, but still do not get up to prepare their children to school. “The awareness of the parent will contribute for the child to have good results. Three days before and after a wedding for example, the child is not present in school and the parents make up excuses. This represents a problem because the absence must be written down as unjustified. The social status is not that big issue, there are also Macedonian poor children, but they all go to school. We went to all Roma homes, to enroll their children, but from the 20 children we enroll only 5 of them come regularly” was pointed out from the teachers.

A teacher. Kelemanov from Goce Delcev pointed out the problem that some children enroll, but disappear after September 10^th. Some of them enroll in another school without notifying the school. The fines do not function because the parents can not afford to pay them.

One of the parents at the debate blamed the other parents for taking their children to work. She said that she has two granddaughters in “Dimitar Vlahov” and that everything is all right with them and that their teachers liked them.

Dzelal, also a parent said that the Macedonian children can afford books because their parents always have some friend’s child who goes to school. He also answered the question for the children not going to school in the morning shift is because they get 1000 denars social assistance and can not get everything food, firewood, clothes books, etc.

Another parent on the debate Ajsa Demirova pointed out on an example from Serbia where poor children get free schooling with all books, materials, clothing, food, etc. And if the parent does not send his child to school he gets immediate punishment. She said that fines like that should exist in Macedonia but along with free education.

Redzep Mustafov agreed that the key is with the parents. “If the child does not listen it must be punished somehow. “

Kiril Panajotov from the local self government said that he grew up with Roma. “I see that part of the people here consider that the Roma must be ghettoized. I see the Roma every day in my life, and that opinion must be eliminated and that all must see how to solve the problems in education. “

Regarding discrimination he pointed out that these kinds of occurrences must be reported, because no one should split the children. If the school does not react, the ombudsman should, because that is violation of the child’s right for education.

One of the parents reacted that his child is always in the last bench. Panajatov said that something will be done about that. He also generalized the problem with absence saying some Macedonian children are also irregular. He said to the parents there not to give up. This is what he also said: “I know parents who come from further where you live and enroll their children. Now education for adults is going to be realized, so Roma parents go and educate your selves and do not blame the teachers for being paid, you can not handle 3 children, and they deal with forty, well of course they will get paid.

I know that the schools are available, please let me know of some who are not. Maybe sometimes we are to blame. We need to force the children to go. I know teachers who come to me with whole lists and ask something to be done about Roma children. “

One of the parents, Ismail Juseinov, pointed out his example, that when he was little he did not go to school regularly because he did not have shoes. His father had worked in Germany and he learned to speak German. When they came here his sister did not want to go to school because they could not afford to buy food. He gets low salary of 5000 denars. He had a comment about the referent in the Munnicipality Erol that he is not there when Roma need him.

Beami, also a parent pointed out at the end that their children need additional classes because they have trouble with the Macedonian language at first.

The debate in Stip was very constructive and there were many concrete messages and suggestions for cooperation. A mutual interest was shown and generally the debate was in a positive direction. However there were no media present, nor a representative from the State Educational Inspectorate.

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KRIVA PALANKA

The debate was held on the 05.12.2007 in the offices of the Municipality of Kriva Palanka, in the presence of 23 participants, 5 of them were teachers, 14 parents, a representative from the State Educational Inspectorate, a referent in the municipality and a journalist.

After presentation of the achieved results during the campaign first for discussion, a mother called named Kefaet. She expressed her revolt, because her children sit in the last bench. In this way she considers that her children are neglected, which influences their learning. She also complained that books were promised to her for her children but they never got them. She also criticized the mediator Jasar. Jasar said that the social welfare center gave her assistance from 2000 denars and that he considers that this amount is enough to acquire the necessary material for school. Other participants joined the debate saying that the social status of these Roma families has its influence. After this the principle of “Ilinden” elementary spoke and she said that her school is trying to contribute in resolving some of the problems. She also added that this year her school has helped 8 Roma children to receive school books and materials. She then informed that her school has the program “Step by step” and that there is rotation of the sitting places so this excludes sitting of Roma children in the last bench. Further more she informed that there are Roma in the parent’s council, the mediator Jasar being one of them.

The psychologist, Snezana Jakimovska from this school stated that they do not have any problems with Roma pupils, but that the problem is more with their parents.

A teacher, Maja Stoilkovska said that she has 28 pupils in her class, 5 of them are Roma and are very regular. These pupils are in the new nine year program. And she has noticed that they tend to socialize amongst themselves and speak on Romani language.

One of the parents, Faik has children enrolled in 7^th grade. He criticized the school because he does not have information about his children and he also did not know any of the parents in the parent’s council. Then another parent joined in the discussion saying that in the older classes there were cases when children where expelled from class because they did not have school books. The school reacted on this saying that they were prepared in these kinds of cases to photocopy books and to help the children. Another parent called, Albert, whose children goes in the second grade. He said that his child was pushed by non Roma children and tat he has asked his teacher to call the parents of the children who pushed his child, however the teachers has not done so. The mother who was supposed to be called said that she would burn them and their house and this caused fear with the Roma child who has been afraid to go to school.

The parent, Abazov Albert said that the school should take appropriate measures so that this would not happen in the future. The representative from the State Educational Inspectorate stated that this was out of their jurisdiction and for these kinds of cases the police needs to be informed.

The staff in the school and the principal stated that they would urge for the problem to be resolved. the Rona parents reacted and pointed out that the non Roma parents were starting to become with more and more negative attitude towards the Roma population. The parent Faik called again and said that grouping of the Roma pupils has been encouraged by non Roma parents and that they consider Roma children as dirty and non equals and that their children take on their attitudes of stereotypes, false images and hatred.

Sonja Angelovska, a teacher in first grade said that she has 4 Roma children, three of them are regular, but the one child did not come to school for three months. She also added that parent’s of the children who are doing well at school come regularly to parental meetings, however there were some problems with the parents when their children take snacks but their parents do not pay for it. The parent’s response to this was that they can not afford and social services do not help.

Zvonko Gogovski, a representative from the State Educational Inspectorate pointed out that several irresponsible parents have received first public notifications and after that minimal fines in the amount of 2000 denars, but he also said that from next year high school education would be obligatory and the fines will not be small. One of the parents, Dehran Rusitovski whose child goes to “Joakim Krcovski” elementary, responded to this by informing that his child a month and half ago was has been expelled from class by his teacher because he did not have any books and was sent to the mediator Jasar. Mr. Rusitovski received an invitation to court, and the teacher claimed the contrary that books could be photocopied.

The inspector said that it was prohibited by law for a teacher to remove a child from class and that with that act the teachers performs physical and mental abuse on the pupil, and that both the parent and his child should see him about it. The parents complained that social services do not do anything to assist them.

Then information was distributed that in the “Ilinden” elementary, the parent’s council has 25 members, 5 of whom are Roma. The principle also added that they closed they have tolerated some absences of the pupils for example during the grape gathering season when many f the pupils were absent and working with their parents. Also a comment was added that many of the Roma in Kriva Palanka have not finished elementary education. The debate ended with a conclusion that more debates of this kind are necessary as well as more work with the parents.

The debate was well organized by the mediator, and all relevant subjects were present. There is great poverty in Kriva Palanka and difficult economic situation distracts them from education. The few of them who are well situated have larger demands. There is a lack of vision for higher education with the children and also positive examples.

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“VASIL GLAVINOV” elementary, SKOPJE“

The debate in “Vasil Glavinov” was held on the 06.12.2007, in the presence of 22 participants, 12 of them were teachers, 9 parents, an advisor for education, but without the presence of journalists.

The debate began with Sabina Bajram, a parent whose child attends “Vasil Glavinov” elementary. She stated: “Although I am in the parent’s council, I have never been informed about when they hold meetings, nor have I ever been invited to such a meeting.”

The principle of “Vasil Glavnov” elementary said: „We at the school have 15 members in the parent’s council, three of them are Roma and everyone is always invited on time for the meetings, while Mrs. Bajram is not in the parent’s council of the school but of the class”. Sokolovska added that these kinds of misunderstandings happen because the parents have not been informed well enough.

Nifa Pepic, a parent said: „I have three children in “Vasil Glavinov” and all three of them sit in the last bench. In this school Roma always sit in the last bench this is why our children can not learn anything. “

The councilor of “Vasil Glavinov” stated: “We are working with the “Step by step” program. With this program during the school day the children rotate so during that day the child may sit in the last or the first bench “

The principle of “Vasil Glavinov” said: „60% of the pupils in our school are Roma and of course some of them sit in the last bench.”

Demiri Silvana, a parent pointed out that she has three children in 3, 5 and 7^th grade in “Vasil Glavinov”. All of her children go to school without books, so they can not learn anything

The councilor from “Vasil Glavinov” said: The largest problem is not, not having books, but coming to school regularly. If a pupils comes to school regulary then he must learn something”.

Nifa Pepic, a parent said: „I demand from the school to ban using of mobile phones during classes. While they are in school they record all kinds of stuff and play them in public “

Muzafer Redzepi, principle of the “Jane Sandanski” elementary stated: “We are already taking measures to ban using of mobile phones, during classes but the parents respond negatively. They say that they have bought the phones so that their children can use them and that we do not have the right to ban them. As far sitting in the last bench goes, almost 90% of the children in my school are Roma so naturally someone must sit in the last bench. We already have facultative classes for Romani language and the feedback from the children is excellent. I am also one of the initiators for introducing Roma history in the school books, but it is up to the Ministry of education to resolve that issue. We also have Albanian children who do not have books but this is not a reason for some children to be weak pupils. All children if they attend school regularly and listen to the teacher carefully will definitely learn something and will get good grades “

Kadri Agusi, principle of “Rajko Zinzovof” elementary: „The main reason for irregularity and the poor success of the children are the parents and their cooperation with the teachers. This is why we need your mediators who will help with that cooperation. This kind of way of cooperation will contribute for positive effects and successes. “

The councilor from “Jane Sandanski” elementary stated „Non governmental organizations must pay more attention on the cooperation with the parents, in order to increase their awareness about their children’s education.”

The debate at “Vasil Glavinov” was well organized but with not enough presence of parents. The educational cadre speaks positively for the children. Another positive fact is that the school already has Roma cadre and the work of non governmental organizations is showing good results. Educational policy is needed with more intensive dialogue.

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SKOPJE, “AVRAM PISEVSKI” elementary

The debate was held on the 07.12.2007, in the “Avram Pisevski” elementary with 30 participants, 14 teachers, 14 parents, a representative from the local self government, there were not representatives from the State Educational Inspectorate and the media.

After the presentation from the documentary film and data from the campaign, the discussion began with one of the present mothers, Dzevrija who stated that they are not pleased with the school, because the school does not work well enough with her children and that often they were insulted from the principle.

One of the teachers of her child reacted: “I am seeing you for the first time. We have problems with Roma parents and children, the parents do not come to parental meetings, the children are absent from school. They are intelligent children but also there are thosewho need parental love. The children have everything they need from clothes to school books and materials, because Karitas has that provided

Dzevrije called again saying that her child has never received support.

Petkovski Dragi, one of the professors reacted: “Please do not split the children, our children are equal. Ameri Alisa, lives in Zlokucani, I was her professor and all of grades were excellent. I have 10 Roma and 19 Macedonian children, the class president is Roma, but let us talk about obligations. We do not need to argue with the parents, we are here for the children, not the other way around. We go to their homes, we visit the children, enroll them, provide them with all possibilities. Go ahead, make a story about Ameri Alisa.“

Izabela Pasovska, a teacher from “Straso Pindzur” said that books do not present a problem, when necessary other children lend them books. The parents are different, there are parents who are regular but also there are those who she has never seen.

Another teacher from “Straso Pindzur” elementary said: “Some of the parents mentioned that there are children who sit in the last bench, some teachers practice group work with different approach, whether by intellectual capabilities or how they work it depends from the teacher. I have children who are slowly progressing, they are in a special group and I work with them individually while the other read or draw. The children need to be learned from home that they should like school, to point them in a positive direction.“

Dejan Dimcevski, a representative from the Municipality Karpos asked from the mediators to say how they perform visit. “The contact with the families is important, how they see their children’s education, the campaign needs to be pointed towards the family. I am a parent I have a child in the first grade, but I claim that Roma parents do not attend meetings. The parent must incite his child and the rest of us must help. If the child is not motivated from his home, we can not do anything. My child sits next to a Roma child, I do not mind and my child also does not mind. You need to steer towards the families. “

Ljatife Sikovska on a request from the advisor presented her field work: “We had the hardest work, for me that was a challenge; I consider that there is enough experience and knowledge, but that the parents only seem passive and uninterested. But they do have an interest for their children to learn and finish, but you all know their social condition and let’s not forget the link parent-child-school. First the family educates the children, so that later they could enhance their knowledge in school. We try to inform them constantly, to show them what they should do. There are problems and we try to overcome them, when I talk to the children I see in them anger, they feel unaccepted, when for example they are late they close the door for them but they let in Macedonian children. It is very important for the teachers to have tolerance. During my visit to some classes I noticed that Roma children sit apart from the other pupils, but we can not divide them like that. What the teacher said about dividing the children in groups, why is that? While contacting to the parents, we visited every family so that they could understand that without education nothing can be achieved.”

After her explanation Asmet asked why the parents do not come regularly to meetings and are there Roma in school’s councils.

A teacher from “Straso Pidzur” pointed out that there are two parents per every class, one Macedonian and one Roma, but in the past their activity was unsatisfactory, however this is not the issue now. On the question why the pupils are progressing slowly, the answer was that this is not only the case with Roma, but also with other children. “In our school the not knowing of the Macedonian language is not a problem, this is only the case with few children.”

A teacher from “Avram Pisevski” said that in his class the children sit depending on how they work: Of course I divide them depending on what they bring to school. Many of them do not show any interest and they even do not bring the materials they should. When there were not enough materials, we collected for them. You gave them school bags, but they do not carry anything in them. Now you brought materials, but I leave the materials here and give it to them when they come to school. I have parents from last year who made sure that their children get everything they need this year, so there are some results. “

Milan Momirovski, principle of “Avram Pisevski” said: “I have been working in education for 38 years, 28 years i have been working with Roma children, I have been a principle for a long time, and for 10 years I worked in “Braka Ramiz i Hamid”, I am a teacher and a councilor – but to answer specifically if there are problems – problems are present everywhere, poverty is present also with the Macedonians, we must not highlight that when we speak about something. In this school repeating of classes has been reduced to minimum, this collective fights for its children, to feel positive atmosphere, not to be absent, we can not set any goals if we do not pay any attention to the children. Almost all children have materials, what is missing is approach, I know that children who are 5 years old do not know the Macedonian language. The teacher must see at what level the child understands the material and should adapt to the child.

The parents need to come regularly; we need them in school, they need to tell their children how to behave and not to cause problems. Children are always impatient, but there is no discrimination, that expression should not even be used.

One of the parents Riza Bajramovic discussed about the school “Mirce Acev” pointing out that Roma children so far do not have any problems with this school, they socialize with other children, but they still need supervision by the teachers and the parents as well.

The principle of “Avram Pisevski” elementary pointed out another problem “We have a child in seventh grade without a certificate and when he comes in eighth grade we will have to annul all his certificates. We want to help, if we enrolled 30 pupils in first grade and they all finish eighth grade than this is success. We try to please every parent, but you know how children are, they tend to socialize in groups. But when they reach 7-8^th grade they all become friends. “

The teacher Petkovski from “Avram Psisevski” elementary said that the debate was going in the wrong direction: “According to your analyses, we are already performing discrimination – we are here to help Roma to improve their education – I am here to tech them how to learn. We should put discrimination aside. Do not split the children now. “

One of the teachers from “Avram Pisevski” said that the Roma Decade is positive, however it needs to be explained to the Roma. “The children understood the debate in a wrong way. They were much more polite before the Decade. The key is our hands needs to be changed in – The key is in our family. The children are in the center of attention, but even if a parent does not show interest for his child it does not mean that the parent does not love him. The Decade is not about power and strength, but it is about better communication. I wrote handbooks for the children explaining to them what the Decade means and what should they do in it.“

Silvana Stojkovska, a teacher from “Straso Pindzur” elementary said that the key for children’s progress is in their families and that awareness of parents should be raised. This should be a top priority and not to use the wrong means to achieve the purpose.

The debate in “Avram Pisevski” was well organized, but it was in a tense atmosphere because of permanent attacks between the parents and the teachers. This school has a long history of problems and unacceptance of Roma pupils which was felt at the debate and continued to put themselves in a defensive position.

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SKOPJE “VERA JOCIC” elementary

The debate was held on the 10.12.2007 with 23 participants present, 9 of them were teachers, 14 parents and the media. Representatives from the municipality did not attend, nor from the State Educational Inspectorate.

On this debate, instead of NRC’s documentary film we presented Darhia’s film about an orchestra. After the usual presentation of project activities we began the debate on the subject “Current directions in the Roma education”.

One of the parents, Memedov Enver from the “Njegos” elementary first joined in the debate and he noted that one of the main problems with Roma children is that they do not know the Macedonian language. He also informed that there should have been a meeting organized to discuss about facultative classes on Romani language, but it was postponed.

Liljana Makovska, principle of “Vera Jocic” elementaty agreed that the language issue is a problem, but introducing facultative classes in third grade is too late. She recommended to the parents to try to teach their children to speak Macedonian. “A family is the environment where the first preparation for education begins. We tell that to all the parents, not just Roma. We have poor cooperation with the family; the parents do not cooperate well enough with the school.

Also other teachers reacted that parents do not come to parental meetings.

A representative of the parental’s council pointed out that parents really do not come, but he can not do anything, it is up to the parents and their awareness. The moderator of the debate Asmet Elezovski recommended to the representative that he should act missionary and to convince the parents in the necessity of their engagement.

The teacher Bogdanka Velkovska from “Dane Krapcev” has been working with first graders for 30 years, and she always has had Roma children in her class. She usually enrolls them herself and even though the enrollment ends by May 31^st, the school has enrolled them in September. Now they have up to 10 Roma pupils per class. She added that there have always been problems with parents, Macedonian and Roma. However communication is more difficult with Roma parents. In relation to other problems with the children she pointed out irregularity, lack of materials, and not enough knowledge of the Macedonian language. This is why they adapt more difficult. “I invite the parents on time and regularly, but they do not show up. Why? I call them on the phone, I send them messages, but they still do not show up. I do not want to argue with them. I only want them to come and if we see a problem we should try to solve it. I will never expel a child, I will find that child a notebook and a pencil. I mix the children so that they could learn Macedonian. Only if the child is regular on classes it will learn Macedonian in three months. Not all children have to be excellent pupils, the important thing is to cooperate so that we could have positive effects”

One of the parents there supported the teacher, relating to the fact that she mixes the children. When they are together they will learn faster. He also pointed out that he comes regularly to meetings and he also calls the other parents. “I do call the other parents, but if they do not want to come I can not do anything about it if they are not interested “

The principle of “N. N. Borce” showed support for our campaign: “The motto of your activity is very good for all young people, not only for Roma, but it is a general tendency with those youths not to study. Young people more and more are starting to believe that education is unnecessary. But with Roma this tendency appears earlier. As far as facultative Roma classes go, I am not against it, but knowing Macedonian is the problem, so don’t you think that additional classes for Macedonian language are more necessary?

In order to achieve greater effects in education positive examples need to be shown. Darhia has positive examples. It is difficult to point someone to think positively, when that person has taught negatively its whole life. The Government also is beginning to implement such an activity.

We have extra curricular activities in the school and even though they are free there are no Roma applying.

I believe that you will have results with this campaign, but in your own words in will take some time. “

The teacher Bogdanka Velkovska from “Dane Krapcev” stated that she would be happy if she would have at least 10 Roma parents to the parental meetings to come and to state their problems. The child must not be left only to the teacher.

“You must work with the adults… if the child is not controlled from home and there is no cooperation with the parents. We are working on that, but you as an organization who is already working on that, must try to work more with the parents, because i know that they want to see their children educated.

Fatime Demir – “Everything takes time, we, Darhia have been working for six years, we know have an educational sector, we also work through cultural activities in order to help in the educational ones. It takes time to create confidence. At Darhia we already began creating it and now through NRC’s campaign the campaign spread across the country. I am also glad that people from Jurumleri came and expressed interest. There are also notable changes with the Roma community. However some of the parents are ashamed to hear on the parental meetings that their children do not have necessary materials so they do not appear. The children are undisciplined because they do not the language and can not follow classes carefully. A fact is that facultative classes start in the 3^rd grade, this is late, however I disagree that it can not help. I remain on the position that the politicians should introduce Roma classes till the 4^th grade, in the meantime the child will also learn Macedonian and when it will come to fifth grade that child would be a solid pupil.

Also to encourage the parents and the teachers I will begin tomorrow to assist the first graders in their homeworks.

The principle of “Dane Krapcev” said: “this kind of work is commendable… in this way results will be achieved… but the parents must be present, they can not back out. The problems must be solved.”

The debate in “Vera Jocic” elementary was constructive and with concrete attitudes and suggestions. Besides the absence of certain representatives from the municipality and the inspectorate, the atmosphere was very positive.

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KUMANOVO, 11.12

On the debate which held in Kumanovo, 31 participants attended, 23 teachers, 6 parents, representative from the State Educational Inspectorate, a representative from the municipality and journalists.

The debate was opened by the Inspector for education, Tome Stojanov who called for discussion right after the presentation of the project ended. “I’ve heard and seen numbers, this year there are 213 children in first grade, there is a tendency for that number to increase, but the state does not offer lists of children born in the enrollment year. I do not know where to begin to enroll children because I am not informed about all of them. This is not only problem for Roma but for all pupils.”

Asmet Elezovski added that during NRC’s field work, there were children aged 13-14 who do not have birth certificates. “We will have meetings which would be significant to overcome this problem. The Decade is being misunderstood, it does not mean that Roma now have power and that they can do anything, it is a process.

A question was asked how many parents attend meetings and how many of them are interested about their children.

Krume Mladenovski, principle of “11 October” discussed in general about the Roma problematic: “Roma are a people, they are not a marginalized group anymore. I am well informed about the history of Roma and I am well informed. They are the most vulnerable community in Macedonia, whose issues are always left aside. Social awareness is beginning to rise, non governmental organizations are raising their voice. Documents like the Roma Strategy have many purposes, but the situation is difficult, but it is slowly changing. There is no discrimination against Roma. In my school, besides several minor incidents at the beginning, this year the enrollment of children has drastically increased, thankfully to the NRC. This action has completed successfully. We are always discussing about integration, mutual life, but many do not understand that term and create segregation.

NRC began its work seriously; I hope it will continue in this way. We do not have exact information how many children are left outside of education. There are also children who have not yet been vaccinated. The beginning is hard, after that everything is easier. Together with NRC we found 50 children who have never been in school.

Also a good sign is that parents want their children to finish school, this means that they have become aware, education is the beginning, after that comes employment, social life, etc.

A teacher from “11 October” told us that there are no problems with the children, because their parents are aware about the meaning of education and are active in the workshops. In her class a treasurer is Fatima, everything functions excellent. Roma children get good grades. “I am grateful to the parents so far, from them depends how will the children continue “, was pointed out by the teacher.

Another teacher in “11 October”, commented on the data after NRC’s presentation. He teaches the older children from 7-8^th grade and has been trying with and for them to get good education. There is a problem with these older children, but that is fault of their parents. “They want to learn, but most of their parents are illiterate and live in their own world where they believe that education is not necessary, although the children are already aware about meaning of education. We have a problem with the grape gatherers. The parents must find a way to leave their children here. The parents must fight, literally to wake up and to be more active and more included in this process.

A history teacher from “11 October” pointed out that parents are an important factor, but also the children are important. “I have excellent pupils who are well accepted and they compete with the other children “, the teacher said.

The deputy principle of “Hristijan Karpos” elementary said: „We are constantly on the field where the number of Roma is largest and we work in especially specific circumstances. I believe that you as coordinators must urge for better cooperation between you and the schools, but without personal profit. I got a very bad impression on one of the meetings we had in the Municipality when a person from the non governmental sector tried to politicize matters. We have realized good cooperation with you and the parents and there are positive results. I have been working in education for 20 years now, I live with Roma and I can see their problems, but we as school can not do more than what we can do as a school, something must be done from the parents. Most of the day they are in our care, but the parents need to show interest, not just to let their children to school because the law demands it. The parents must understand that the teacher do like their children and their parents must help them so that the children could be involved in this society. As much as the complexity of this issue is, that much we have to raise the awareness of the parents. A child’s first obligation is to go to school. We with the NGOs go on the field, we come across problems, parents hide their children, why? We do not expect a BOOM but we must try all together.”

One of the present parents pointed out that motivation is necessary. For a child to go tho school it needs to be motivated. On the last concourse for employment in public administration there were very few Roma employed.

We need to consider that Roma children come from a ghetto, we need additional work with them or to cut them some slack.

There is certain discrimination… for parent’s councils, how much Roma parents are represented, it is unknown, and who protects our children’s interests, so this means that politics are involved in education. Only on paper we have rights, but not in practice.“

The debate was held in a constructive atmosphere with the presence of all invited subjects. There were many constructive suggestions. The debate was well organized by the mediators. The one negative thing was that some of the teachers had to leave because they had classes.

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KUMANOVO, 12.12.2007

The second debate in Kumanovo was organized in the “Braka Miladinovci” elementary with 36 participants, 14 were teachers, 10 parents, a representative from the municipality and the state educational inspectorate. The discussion after presentation of the campaign began with Ljiljana, a councilor in “Krste Misirkov” who has been included in the educational processes for 20 years. According to her a significant progress was made in Roma education, there are still some pupils who are irregular, but not like before. she said that she has understanding for the parents who can not find time because they are always working: “We know in what conditions they live. However, cooperation between the parents and the school is very necessary, so they must organize themselves at least one parent to come from time to time if they want their children to progress. They need to go to parental meetings regularly, to increase their children’s regularity on classes; the teachers must be informed on time if a child is to be absent. We also have a problem, same pupils are absent from classes a lot, we send invitations to their parents; we call them to talk, but they do not show up…“

Jadranka, a teacher in “Braka Miladinovci” was pleased that her pupils are regular because of the organized transport. “But not everything is well, many of the children can not stay for additional classes, we did not find a way with the parents to organize this, they are very uncooperative.” The teacher ended her speech with a suggestion to adapt transportation of the children according to the needs of the children for additional classes.

The principal of “Braka Miladinovci” discussed about the cooperation with the mediators. His suggestion is that this cooperation must continue and not tot deviate from that plan. According to him the mediators are a very important contact point, but also the parents must come to the school. About the presence of Roma parents in the parent’s council, he admitted that there are many few parents, but that they need to express interest for it themselves. Regarding facultative classes the principle pointed out that they have been making analyses to begin with only several classes at first, but this would be done after the regular classes. Two groups with 17 pupils each are interested for facultative classes from a total number of 120 pupils. “You could probably help to lobby them, to convince them that this is good for them”, the principle said.

A teacher from “Braka Miladinovci”, Mrs. Anastasovska pointed out on the need to include Roma children in education at the earliest age if possible. Their analyses show great differences between the children who went to kindergartens and the ones who did not. Those who have come socialized and educated. “Perhaps you should think about a greater number of children in kindergartens, they acquire good habits there”, the teacher said.

Another teacher from “Krste Misirkov” expressed her satisfaction from the cooperation. In his class there are 4 Roma children from the Sredorek settlement who are regular and the teacher has contacts with the parents for now through the mediator. But he would like for the parents to come to school sometimes.

One of the people there spoke about his grandchild whose father had passed away. He is looking after the child but does not receive any assistance from the state about it. “How can I live, I can not afford to buy food for my grandchild, why doesn’t someone help these children?”, he asked.

Another parent, Mr. Ekremovski said that his child is in second grade. He wants for his child to have an education, but the child needs books, snacks, etc. “I can not afford to send my child to school because of social reasons, they are unequal with the other children they have to mix together and not sit in the last bench,“ was the reaction of the parent.

One of the teachers reacted on this saying that they are equally arranged and that there is no discrimination because they work with a new program.

Another parent again reacted claiming that also his child sits in the last bench, but the principle of “Braka Miladinovci” explained that the children do not work with the classic program but with the new “Step by step” program and they sit in groups so there is no one in the last nor the first bench.

Then another parent complained that his child comes home from school worried because the teacher asked him why I haven’t bought books for him yet. “I can not afford to buy books, I do not have the money. on parental meetings the teacher talks to me all the time about the books, but we only get 1800 denars. One of my children remained unenrolled because they aid that there is no more room. “

Tafo Mamutovski, also one of the parents said that he has 2 children and when he got the invitation to enroll them, he did that and enrolled them with the teacher Emilija, but with 2000 denars social assistance can not afford everything they need, he must choose whether to clothe them or to buy them food. “I help my children as much as I can, I work at the market place, I am pleased with the teacher, but it is also up to us and ow much we work with our children.“

Dragica, a councilor in “Krste Misirkov” elementary said that the accent of this discussion has turned on economic condition but the school can not do anything in this area, she appealed to the NGOs: “I do not flatter anyone, but this organization has achieved something like no other organization before, the number of Roma children has increased, we know that these people don’t have much and we need to understand that. But we must understand the teachers as well, they are the ones who deal with 30 or more children each day, I held a meeting with the teachers and explained to them what these children need. The government promised computers, books – I hope it will live up to its promise; none of the pupils have been expelled. We also worked with “Daja”, but we achieved minimal success, the Decade is here, but inclusion and awareness is required from the parents, each parent must be responsible. We can only achieve results with good communication, the school must be opened, the main problem however is with the family. Every parent wants his child to be educated… They must send their children to school, I do not know what is going to happen with the obligatory high school education.“

The debate was constructive and well organized. We were pointed to very significant matters about the further course of the campaign and generally the work in the field of education of the teachers and NRC.